Gn:19:5: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.(KJV)
I am posting this so Christians can have a better understanding of this term "know" as it was used concerning the men of Sodom. What does it mean to say "Bring them out ... we want to k* the men".. to have sex with the men?
For those who are unfamiliar with how to use a Concordance, you search the word you're interested in studying, and locate the number at the end of the verse, which will give you the correct Hebrew or Greek word in the Dictionaries at the back of the Concordance.
After reading this list of verses, in which the terms "knew" and "know" appear, it becomes apparent, that to "know somebody" or "knew somebody" very rarely meant to have sexual intercourse in the Bible. When a verse contains the term "know" and differs from that term "know" as was used in reference to the men of Sodom, I am marking that in Blue for easy recognition. There aren't many, as one will clearly see. I am marking those verses which clearly imply sexual intercourse in red. Again, as you can see, there are very few verses in the book of Genesis, incorporating this term 3045 "know" as with the Sodomites' "know" meaning "sexual intercourse".
The remaining verses in black, contain the same term 3045 "know" which was used in reference to the men of Sodom, yet we have only a neutral meaning without controversy.
Strong's Exaustive Concordance, Page 572, 573
(I am providing examples from Genesis through Exodus which should be ample to clarify the use of the terms knew and know in the Pentateuch.)
knew See also FOREKNEW; KNEWEST
Genesis 3:7 and they k* that they were naked....................... 3045
Genesis 4:1 Adam k* Eve his wife; and she............. 3045
Genesis 4:17 Cain k* his wife; and she conceived...... 3045
Genesis 4:25 Adam k* his wife again; and she.......... 3045
Genesis 8:11 Noah k* that the waters were abated................... 3045
Genesis 9:24 k*what his younger son had done ......................... 3045
Genesis 28:16 Lord is in this place: and I k* it not.................. 3045
Genesis 31:32 k* not that Rachel had stolen them ..................... 3045
Genesis 37:33 he k* it, and said, It is my son's..... 5234
Genesis 38:9 Onan k* that the seed should not......................... 3045
Genesis 38:16 he k* not that she was his daughter..................... 3045
Genesis 38:26 son. And he k* her no more.............. 3045
Genesis 39:6 he k* not ought he had, save the......................... 3045
Genesis 42:7 saw his brethren, and he k* them........ 5234
Genesis 42:8 Joseph k* his brethren, but they k*..... 5234
Genesis 42:23 they k* not that Joseph understood...................... 3045
Exodus 1:8 over Egypt, which k* not Joseph............................ 3045
know See also FOREKNOW; KNEW; KNOWEST; KNOWETH; KNOWING; KNOWN.
Genesis 3: 5 God doth k* that in the day ye eat....................... 3045
Genesis 3:22 as one of us, to k* good and evil........................ 3045
Genesis 4: 9 I k* not: Am I my bother's keeper?....................... 3045
Genesis 12:11 I k*that thou art a fair woman to....................... 3045
Genesis 15:8 shall I k* that I shall inherit it?...................... 3045
Genesis 15:13 K* of a surety that thy seed shall...................... 3045
Genesis 18:19 For I k* him, that he will command...................... 3045
Genesis 18:21 come unto me; and if not, I will k*..................... 3045
Genesis 19:5 out unto us, that we may k* them......................... 3045
Genesis 20:6 Yea, I k* that thou didst this, in the................... 3045
Genesis 20:7 k* thou that thou shalt surely die....................... 3045
Genesis 22:12 for now I k* that thou fearest God...................... 3045
Genesis 24:14 I k* that thou hast shown kindness...................... 3045
Genesis 27: 2 old, I k* not the day of my death:...................... 3045
Genesis 29: 5 K* ye Laban the son of Nahor?........................... 3045
Genesis 29: 5 And they said, We k* him................................ 3045
Genesis 31: 6 And ye k* that with all my power I...................... 3045
Genesis 37:32 k* now whether it be thy son's coat.... 5234
Genesis 42:33 shall I k* that ye are true men......................... 3045
Genesis 42:34 then shall I k* that ye are no spies.................... 3045
Genesis 43: 7 we certainly k* that he would say....................... 3045
Genesis 44:27 k* that my wife bare me two sons:....................... 3045
Genesis 48:19 and said, I k* it, my son, I k* it...................... 3045
Exodus 3: 7 taskmasters; for I k* their sorrows....................... 3045
Source: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
Source: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
If what Fundamentalists have taught for centuries about the men of Sodom being homosexual -- that "knew" meant to have sex with the strangers, then likewise, let's take some verses written with Hebrew term 3045, and turn them into these sexual or homosexual verses, and see just how much sense they make.
HERE ARE SOME EXAMPLES IN ACTION OF SCRIPTURES IF WHAT FUNDAMENTALISTS SAY ABOUT THE WICKEDNESS OF SODOM WAS HOMOSEXUALITY, WERE TRUE....
Gn:3:22: And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Perhaps Good and Evil are gods, somewhat like Yin and Yang, and Adam had sex with both of them... based on the verse, Elohim already had sex with Good and Evil. Elohim expresses fears that Adam has a fetish for trees too.
Gn:4:9: And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
And Jehovah asks "Where is your brother"... quickly Cain responds, defensively "I'm not having sex!" Am I responsible for my brother? (Maybe Cain was in the middle of masturbating and got caught off guard).
Gn:18:17: And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Jehovah admits in this verse, having a sexual relationship with Abraham.
Gn:18:18: Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
A great and mighty nation... afterall, with God going up in Abraham...
Gn:18:21: I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
If Jehovah visits Sodom, and it's not that bad... Jehovah will have sex.
Gn:20:7: Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
Jehovah commands, that if Sarah is not returned to Abraham, Abimelech is commanded to masturbate, until he dies, and not only to have sex with himself, but to have sex with everyone in his household, including the beasts.
Gn:29:5: And he said unto them, Know ye Laban the son of Nahor? And they said, We know him.
Gn:45:1: Then Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried, Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren.
Another Orgy - only this time, they're keeping it in the family. Like they say about "The closer the kin, the deeper...."
Gn:47:6: The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle.
Pharoah commands, to Joseph to have sex with his some of his male relatives, and those he has sex with, can tend Pharoah's sheep.
Ex:5:2: And Pharaoh said, Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the Lord, neither will I let Israel go.
Pharaoh admits his relationship with Jehovah, is completely Platonic.
Ex:6:3: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Jehovah has sex with men, using an alias.
Ex:18:11: Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
(Double meaning) Jehovah was the better lover.
Ex:32:22: And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
Jehovah has sex with the multitude, and causes them to stray into mischief.
Ex:33:13: Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
Moses wants to have sex with Jehovah.
Moses wants to have sex with Jehovah.
Ex:33:16: For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
Under the kitchen table for starters...
Nm:12:6: And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
Ah, another wet dream.
Nm:24:16: He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open: (KJV)
What Jehovah looks like climaxing...
Dt:1:13: Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.
Sex addicts and empowerment.
Dt:11:28: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
Fatal Attraction: Jehovah is a scorned, jealous lover.
Dt:20:20: Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.
Fettish for Trees - just beware the poison ivy
A few extra verses thrown in from The Old Testament just for the heck of it ...
Jos:4:22: Then ye shall let your children know, saying, Israel came over this Jordan on dry land.
And some would complain about condoms being handed out at the schools...
Jos:4:24: That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the Lord, that it is mighty: that ye might fear the Lord your God for ever.
When God's own hand does your masturbating, you know it's going to be good.
1Sm:3:7: Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, neither was the word of the Lord yet revealed unto him.
Jehovah's Young Lust
If these verses appear ridiculous interpreted in this manner, then one should be capable of seeing how ridiculous a homosexual-mob-rape interpretation for Gn:19:5 is, as well.
From: Ed Rhodes
My God, an actual study using carefully worked out research. It will now be totally ignored by anybody who doesn't agree with it.
Sometimes you have to laugh or you'll cry.
Just because there is more than one meaning to a single word does not mean that you can exclude one meaning. In basic English the word know/knew has more than one meaning. I can know understand/comprehend) or I can know (be acquainted with) one referring to a situation the other to a person.
Any excuse/attempt to try to justify homosexuality will in the end fall flat on it's face, homesexuality is totally unnatural and against God's order of things.
What Sue is overlooking, is that her reasoning falls flat on its face when put under scrutiny.
Homosexuality is totally unnatural and against God's order of things? Okay...
Slavery is condoned in the Bible. That's part of God's order of things I am to assume.
Pulygamy is condoned in the Bible. That too is a part of God's order of things.
Concubinage is condoned in the Bible. We are to also assume that it is a part of God's order of things.
As for homosexual behavior being "unnatural"... let us take a look at that.
Homosexual behavior has been observed in barnyard animals (bulls, cows, stallions, donkeys, cats, rams goats, pigs), 18 species in captivity (including rats, antelope, elephants, hyenas, monkeys, apes, rabbits, lions, porcupines, hamsters, mice, porpoises). For example, two female macaque monkeys were observed giving each other orgasms. Homosexual behavior has also been observed in several species in the wild-- anolis lizards, mountain sheep, seagulls, langurs, bonobo chimpanzees.
See book on reserve in the library, starting p.99, for info and photos on homosexuality in bonobos:
De Waal, F. (1997). Bonobo: The forgotten ape. Berkeley: University of California Press. Weinrich, J. D. (1982). Is homosexuality biological natural? In W. Paul, J. D. Weinrich, J. C. Gonsiorek, & M. E. Hotvedt (Eds.), Homosexuality: Social, psychological, and biological issues. Beverly Hills, CA: Sage.
"Sharon" on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 wrote:
Was the Wickedness of Sodom Homosexuality?
Excerpts from the Concordance, clarifying the definition of the Hebrew term 'know' as was recorded about Sodom in Genesis. A wild imagination doesn't equate to divine hermeneutics.
Scholars have already stated they do not believe the wickedness of Sodom was meant as "homosexuality". They believe it was to do more with the wretched treatment of strangers and the poor.
I remember I posted this same information in one Yahoo group and some big mouthed jerk claimed the proof against what I was saying existed in a dictionary (he *would not* and *refused* to produce a copy, I asked for scan of it --he sent an email cursing and swearing and saying "I am not your secretary"... rude, psychotic, addicted -- sweating profusely, deranged -- somebody had interfered with his spiritual dope) cursing, calling me all sorts of names, there was a snobby woman on that group pumping his overinflated ego, (old, ignorant fundy woman) "He's right. He knows more about Hebrew than you." You know the type, "Goddidit, the Bible says so, therefore. . ."
Any excuse they can find to cave to wild, warped, sick imaginations in interpreting scripture, as further excuse to HATE and PERSECUTE anyone different than them.
It reminds me of what Patty Hearst allegedly said of the talk around the country about her sexual life, "They wanted to imagine that I ..."
Gn:6:5: And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gn:8:21: the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth...(KJV)
Sick, narrow minded perverts camouflaged behind a thin veil of pious hypocricy does not "righteous" make.
Edward T. Babinski wrote:
Some argue that the verb "to know" entailed nothing sexual, but then, why did Lot offer the crowd his daughters? Didn't the folks in town already "know" Lot's daughters? And there's a story elsewhere in the O.T. where a man brings strangers to his house and tosses his wife to an unruly crowd outside his door, and the wife winds up dead the next morning. Raped to death? I think the story is in Judges, Kings or Chronicles. (Of course such doublings of stories in the O.T. usually is a hint to folklorists that they are dealing with widely spread folk tales or folk themes that were appropriated and re-appropriated as new tales. How much of the entire Lot/angel tales is history is therefore mute. As is the tale about Lot's wife turning into a pillar of salt when she lots back at Sodom, or like Lot's two daughters having incest with their father and bearing children that become two great tribes, i.e., tribes that are in many ways like the Hebrews from which Abraham, Lot's friend, descended, but though close, were also despised by their close Hebrew cousins--which implies that the story about Lot's daughters and incest giving rise to two great tribes was yet another folk tale to try and explain how such similar people could have such long standing grievances toward one another lying somewhere in the misty past.)
Subjugating new-comers to a town by having anal sex with them was also an ancient form of ritual humiliation, i.e., to show the newcomers who was "boss." It didn't necessarily have to do with homosexual gangs raping people. But then, why did Lot offer the crowd his daughters if the point was merely to ritually humiliate the newcomers to town? Lot's daughters were not newcomers. So they could not serve as ritual humiliation, though perhaps they might serves as stand-ins for ritual humiliation of the newcomers? Perhaps.
Certainly if the crowd was assumed to be nothing but sex-crazed homosexual rapists, why did Lot imagine that females would be something they wanted? Or maybe the crowd would have sodomized the females as well? Or maybe Lot didn't assume they were homosexuals and that his young daughters would be found MORE pleasing to these angry heterosexual men?
Of course another point is that Heb. prophets like Is. and Ez. both listed the primary sins of Sodom as being inhospitality and an uncaring attitude toward the poor and the widow, etc. They didn't dwell on the story about Lot and the two strangers and the crowd that sought to "know them."
There's books on the subject of course, and you can read interpretations all day.
"Sharon" on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 wrote:
Some argue that the verb "to know" entailed nothing sexual, but then, why did Lot offer the crowd his daughters?
Common sense. A mob wants to interrogate your guests (and "hospitality" was very important in the ancient near east, scholars say). Throw 'em gold as a bribe, offer them twenty goats to leave, or, as we both know human females had little or no value --give the crowd your two virgin daughters to protect your male guests. The crowd was not interested in sex. Rather, this offer only infuriated them more and they threatened Lot to do worse to him, than they would do to his guests. Why didn't they rape Lot at the door?
Interrogation = "know".
Didn't the folks in town already "know" Lot's daughters? And
Sure, but they weren't interested in sex. Obviously. Lot's "story" is that his wife was turned to salt, and his wretched virgin
daughters got him drunk and raped him while he slept (any dirty old man's favorite wet dream no doubt) but it only goes to show further, Lot was not the righteous man scripture claims, and all the more reason *he'd bribe men using the lives of his own two daughters* to protect his male guests.
The crowd was more moral than Lot and refused, not only refused but rebuked him for such an offensive suggestion! They were not interested in raping little girls, they were interested in interrogating strangers who had entered the city and I do not blame them --wars had been recently fought in the region. No doubt they were paranoid.
I've bribed my own son, when he demanded wanting to go some place, or wanting some special thing to play with, and offering some token thing (ice cream, cookies, etc) in lieu of what he wanted. Going to see his aunt does not equate to ice cream or cookie, but that's what Christian fundamentalists are doing --misconstruing a bribe as the interpretation of this word "know".
there's a story elsewhere in the O.T. where a man brings strangers to his house and tosses his wife to an unruly crowd outside his door, and the wife winds up dead the next morning. Raped to death? I think the story is in Judges, Kings or Chronicles. (Of course such doublings of stories in the O.T. usually is a hint to folklorists that they are dealing with widely spread folk tales or folk themes that were appropriated and re-appropriated as new tales. How much of the entire
And somewhere folklorists changed stories of giants impregnating women, into angels (sons of god) impregnating women. .. back to the subject. How many gay men in this day and age do you know who get together in mobs and knock down doors to rape male strangers? How often have you heard of such a thing?
Or, so I've heard most homosexual men are "passive" and less likely to commit violent sexual crimes. Perhaps that misconception about homosexual men has fueled a lot of unnecessary homophobic paranoia and panic in society.
Edward T. Babinski wrote: Those are superb answers!